tdi + common rail conversions to MTDI

[famous phil]

I've built three this week two for the VW TDi engines

after much searching with help from a local Bosch specialist for a suitable pump to correctly run TDi and common rail diesel engines turned up very little due to the measurements and profiles of the cam plates speeds at which the governors start to operate and more importantly the dimensions of the main pressure distributor spindle , another problem is the fuel boost aneroid on most being built on the top making them interfere with the engine lid on T25's ,, I've still got to check if there will be much machining if any to make the JX type fit ,

I've invested in some new tooling + jigs to help disassemble/build and for the engineer to machine some of the parts ,also this engineer that does other work for me has set out a program for machining parts regarding the Governor -not all need this doing but I found that some rotating parts had worn and with some machining , parts from the TDi pump will fit , two early type pumps that I've built this week run at 190bar the other a later type working at 220 300 bar which I'm going to use on my common rail conversion this pump is using lighter governors with a shorter actuator rod for higher RPM's , I'm not sure of the date for changes but I've had five TDi pumps in this week with three different pressure settings using different internal parts , two of these are getting built up today

I'm also on working out one for the 5cyl 2.5tdi which is really head battering because its counterclockwise rotationally driven , so far parts are needed from three different pumps to build one , looks like the amount of work and parts involved in building this pump will make it uneconomically viable , I'm thinking of shoehorning one of these engines into a unimog 404 , I must crack on now got two partly striped pumps in an oven to help remove the final parts
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Auto Union Munga Jeep ,T4 2.4td , T4 2.5tdi ,Mercedes S Class on LPG , 66 splity deluxe , GP mk1, 3 type 25s 1 with 1.9dt pug engine + 1 with N/A pug engine ,,there are 6 t25s with pug power in Darlington

[famous phil]

Hi all, as I may have said earlier my pals camper had sat for four years with a blown AAZ engine and that he'd had sat in a shed a 1.9TDi engine for twelve unable to get it running , I needed to check to see if his fuel pump was in a serviceable condition , so removed some of the circuitry and added my box of tricks and to my pals amazement away she went , I stripped his pump and was hoping to have it rebuilt ready for fitting but found that I need some shims to reassemble to the factory's ultra fine tolerances and to be within specification for fuel distribution


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Auto Union Munga Jeep ,T4 2.4td , T4 2.5tdi ,Mercedes S Class on LPG , 66 splity deluxe , GP mk1, 3 type 25s 1 with 1.9dt pug engine + 1 with N/A pug engine ,,there are 6 t25s with pug power in Darlington

[famous phil]

Hi all, I called round to get some parts machined at 9.30pm this was because the machine is normally working 24/7 ,
I'll be assembling the parts to the pumps I'm building over the next day or so , as well as fitting another pump to a t25 more later as I'm busy with a common rail today


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Auto Union Munga Jeep ,T4 2.4td , T4 2.5tdi ,Mercedes S Class on LPG , 66 splity deluxe , GP mk1, 3 type 25s 1 with 1.9dt pug engine + 1 with N/A pug engine ,,there are 6 t25s with pug power in Darlington

[13 window deluxe]

[famous phil]

The work on building a suitable pump is coming on great , after a couple of stressful days trying to find a suitable machining process , with the correct advance and retard this amongst other parts is due to having the correct Regulating Valve fitted ,
checked out a disco pump thought not to have an internal lift pump ( 200tdi engine has one working off the cam ) I've checked one out and this one has the lift pump fitted , I was thinking if the disco pump was getting used with a 12volt lift pump then the advance retard would not work correctly , needs to be proportionate to engine speed , the disco pump will work correctly on a TDi if parts from two other pumps are fitted along with the correct shims
The disco one I have has ( +-.03 ) 2.44mm lift the early VW TDi has 3mm ( same size distributor spindle ) later VW TDi 3.09 lift with larger dis spindle , I've built up a pump to work on a common rail engine and has gone through tests with flying colours



Then checked to see how some four pot callipers were coming on , think this ones had too much polishing


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Auto Union Munga Jeep ,T4 2.4td , T4 2.5tdi ,Mercedes S Class on LPG , 66 splity deluxe , GP mk1, 3 type 25s 1 with 1.9dt pug engine + 1 with N/A pug engine ,,there are 6 t25s with pug power in Darlington

[sven]

Hmm... I thought both 200 and 300 were without a lift pump?

Phil, I'm not really following you. Are you using a mTDI pump on a common rail system? The common rail has higher fuel pressure, how do you plan to fix that with a TDI pump?

[Ianbott]

I'm a little confused too. It comes across that you are converting a TDi to a common rail. Is that correct? Is it possible using a TDi pump.
As for the disco pump the 300 TDi deffinitely has an independent lift pump attached to the engine block and driven by a cam/lobe.
Not sure about 200's though.
I have a complete 300 pump in the workshop if you want any measurements?
Cheers Ian

[sven]

I have a pump, thanks anyway. Gotta get a lift pump then.

Still confused what Phil is doing.

[13 window deluxe]

i work on landys everday and i can confirm the 200 and 300tdi engines have a seperate cam driven lift pump. i have run a landy pump on my mtdi suzuki samurai with no lift pump with no problems. on a bay or split i wouldnt envisage any trouble as you have a head of fuel due to the fuel tanks height
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1964 rat 13 window deluxe 1Z tdi,
1975 rhd twin slider tintop (TBA)
1991 golf 2 gti with tweaked AHU tdi,

previous tdi swaps: gone but not forgotten
1979 rhd twin slider tintop bay ahu 1.9tdi
1990 T25 1Z 1.9tdi
1993 suzuki samurai with 1Z 1.9tdi

[famous phil]

Hi, yes it looks as though the landy's have one in the pump as well , if one can be fitted without an external lift pump and works for more than 1/2 an hour then there's got to be an internal lift pump , these pumps need to circulate large amounts of fuel for lubrication and to keep cool , also the pressure builds up to work the advance and retard valves ,

On one of my campers I found that it was not running to good this was due to the return pipe not having a large enough bore - making the internal pressure more hence forcing the advance valve to quickly
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Auto Union Munga Jeep ,T4 2.4td , T4 2.5tdi ,Mercedes S Class on LPG , 66 splity deluxe , GP mk1, 3 type 25s 1 with 1.9dt pug engine + 1 with N/A pug engine ,,there are 6 t25s with pug power in Darlington

[sven]

I have a T25 though, so the tank is a little bit up front. Might work anyway, I don't think there's a pump there now either.

EDIT: Posted right on time when Phil posted. I'll get one then.

[famous phil]

Right the main mission with all this research is to build a mechanical pump to run an engine that was fitted with an ECU controlled Bosch rotary distributor style pump= early type VW TDi ,

look at it this way - you go out buy an engine 1.9TDi then start looking for a suitable pump to run it ( just like a lot of people have done )
This may sound a bit funny but I wanted a pump to run a common rail ( non VW ) engine and chose to use the later VW1.9TDi and 220/300bar injectors , so with weeks & weeks of research looking at dismantled pumps plus buying pumps ( about 18 ) to dismantle to find the correct parts , so that I could quote part numbers when placing orders .

so with the VW TDi pump and a suitable ( even non working ) donor pump machining plus the correct specified parts a pump can be built to run the TDi engine very well ,

On the common rail engine I could bolt in landy 200TDi injectors and pump ( with different boost aneroid and governor to give upto 5000rpm )
but feel it may sound like a transit Di
so what I need to find is an injector the same dimensions as the 200tdi (200bar ) but with two stage injectors around 220/300bar- maybe the 300tdi ones might fit ? have none to check at the moment ,


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Auto Union Munga Jeep ,T4 2.4td , T4 2.5tdi ,Mercedes S Class on LPG , 66 splity deluxe , GP mk1, 3 type 25s 1 with 1.9dt pug engine + 1 with N/A pug engine ,,there are 6 t25s with pug power in Darlington